Jane Somerville interview on staff speaking up: Transcript from Times Radio Breakfast (7 September 2023)

Summary

This post is a transcript of an interview on Times Radio Breakfast on 7 September 2023 in which Dr Jane Somerville, Emeritus professor of cardiology at Imperial College, was asked if the Lucy Letby case has uncovered a problem of the difficulties doctors have of voicing their concerns in hospitals. In the interview, Dr Somerville refers to systemic persecution of NHS staff who speak up about patient safety. She goes on to identify the key issues of power; cover-up culture; suppression of complaints/concerns; career-ending reprisals against staff who speak up; and the almost universal failure of employment tribunals to protect whistleblowers. 

Content

RW: Rosie Wright (Times Radio presenter)

JS: Dr Jane Somerville (Emeritus professor of cardiology, Imperial College)

RW: One of the striking things about the Lucy Letby case was how doctors raised concerns but were told to, in effect, butt out by their managers. Now we know the Letby case was one-of-a-kind but a senior doctor has told The Times that the persecution of doctors who speak up is systemic.

Here’s Jane Somerville, Emeritus Professor of Cardiology Imperial College and one of the country's most renowned consultants. Jane, thank you for your time – explain if you can. Management in hospitals. Why is it that you believe that they’re failing to listen to anyone working in the hospital who raises concerns?

JS: Good morning, I think that the managers have power. I think they have a cover up culture which is very severe.  I think they want to stop people complaining. And they like persecuting the doctors.  So anybody who speaks up for safety of a patient – which is vital for a doctor to do – they will persecute.

We don't know how often this occurs. We do know the outcomes in many patients. It is extremely serious. They lose their jobs. They lose their livelihood sometimes, and they are persecuted by the managers (which also include their chosen doctors).

RW: Presumably  you are speaking about this from experience, having witnessed it?

JS: Oh yes I've witnessed it many times over the last four years since I've been interested in the problem rather than practising medicine. I’ve wanted to help them. I personally am involved in whistleblowing. I'm not a whistleblower – I escaped. I had plenty to talk about, but I didn't get involved as a whistleblower. Most whistleblowers that we know in Justice for Doctors have blown and have lost their jobs.

It's a very serious problem.  It's systemic in the National Health Service. It may not be in every trust – we don't know because they don't keep a record. It's a very serious problem because it ends up in the loss often of good consultants.

Recently in the press there has been the loss of an obstetrician in Hampshire, a maxfax (maxillofacial surgeon) in Bath, a cardiologist in Saint Helier (a disastrous trust for this) and you know about all the dreadful goings on in maternity – I don't need to repeat that. It's really very serious, and the managers must be regulated – they are an unregulated bunch.

RW: Jane, presumably when there is a problem there is a process in place for, let's say, a concerned doctor to be able to report it. What's wrong in that process do you think?

JS: Well, the first thing is it doesn't work in many cases. I'm sure there are many where it does, but it doesn't work in serious cases. A cover up process from the top to the bottom – or from the middle upwards, we don't know where – continues until finally the doctor may find himself in an employment tribunal. And that’s another set of disasters – the judiciary within employment tribunals. They should never get to that is the first thing. And when they get to that, 97% are lost by the litigant, by the complainant.

RW: The argument is great – changing culture and practice among trust managers and executives.

RW: Jane, thank you so much for your time. Jane Somerville,  a Professor of Cardiology at Imperial College. I must say that the paper (The Times) has reached out to the Department of Health and Social Care, and the Ministry of Justice for comments. For people reading online that story will be updated when we hear from them.